"Being brave enough to speak up is the first step"

Sensitive content warning: The content of this interview may be emotionally challenging and discusses the theme of mental health and suicide.

Hi Daniel, thanks for speaking with us. Can you tell us about your role with Samaritans?
Outside of my work as an Account Manager at Kubrick, I'm a hotline volunteer and shift leader at Samaritans in New York. I've been volunteering there since August 2022, and I got a promotion at the end of my first year to help manage the 24/7 hotline. We largely operate for New York and the Tri-State area, but we’re now linked into the 988 National Hotline, so we do get calls from across the country from people who are suicidal or who have mental health issues and want to talk to about their situation or what they’re feeling.

How did you decide to get involved with Samaritans?
There were two big things, aside from my general interest in fostering communication. I read a great book called “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss, which is about his experience as an FBI negotiator. He focuses on the work he did with hostages and high-intensity negotiations with terrorists, but he got his start on suicide hotlines, and he recommends it, so it piqued my interest. Also, a friend of mine took his own life in August 2022, and I thought that doing a suicide hotline would be a nice way to give back in his memory.

What an impactful way to give back in honor of his memory. When you joined, how did Samaritans help prepare you to take on the role?
I went through some pretty intense training when I started that was really useful and absolutely vital. But it's also true that I'm not a psychologist. I don't work professionally in mental health; I haven't worked in that industry professionally for long periods of time.

The training they give you is great, but it does have its limits and they're very clear on that. Their training is designed to show you where to stop. You’re not diagnosing people, and you're not offering them solutions, which is a huge part of it. It can sometimes be heavily emotional, and you may get attached to what someone else is going through. When you’re talking with someone, especially if it's for a long period of time, or if it relates to your own past, it can be tough to keep within the limits. But it can be kind of liberating, because you begin to have as much impact as you can, and then you have to practice letting go.

Ultimately, we are there as an open ear for people. We’re not trying to solve these people’s problems, we’re trying to help them feel it, process it, and create a narrative out of it. With good active listening, and some guidance to navigate and work through those feelings, people usually know how to move forward in their own lives far better than if we were to try to fix a problem.

Aside from the training and resources Samaritans provide, do you have any self-care techniques, perhaps a pre- or post- call routine, or ways to ‘re-center’ after some of the more difficult calls?
The rituals and routines are maybe not such a strength of mine, to be honest. I'm usually good at letting go of the more difficult things, and I don't know if that’s something that I've grown into. The hotline does give you some training in areas such as meditation or breathing techniques. And at the end of every shift, you have a breakdown with the manager where you can talk about what your calls were like that day, if any calls bothered you, and why. I would also say that having a strong support network of people you know who care about you can be beneficial. And, walking or exercise can be really helpful for de-stressing.

With now over a year of experience in this role, has it affected your perspective on mental health?
It's shaped my opinion in acknowledging that mental health issues are so prolific. They're so widespread, and there's such a wide spectrum of what mental health means for people. I think there’s a bit of a fine line; sometimes, being overly nice to someone may not always be good for them, and some people need a little bit of a hard line. But, having sympathy for what someone's going through, and suffering from, is always key. It is not only kind and ethical, but is actually helpful to the path for healing. That’s definitely something that I’ve been struck by, as well as just how common mental health issues are, especially in modern society.

And I would say that seeing all of this suffering, as morbid as it is, it is kind of a nice reminder that you really don't know what someone is going through, there are a lot of people that don’t wear that pain, mental health issues, or depression, on their sleeves, so it’s a nice reminder to approach people openly and with kindness, and not judge them too quickly.

That's a great message. Movember, recognised in the month of November, is a movement to raise awareness and funds for men’s health challenges, with a focus on mental health. Is there anything you'd want to speak on relating to that, or men's mental health specifically, in any capacity?
This is a tricky but important topic to address. I'm a big believer in equal rights for all genders - I think it's really, really important and something that we need to continue fighting for - so I do not want mental health care to be seen as exclusive to men. But it is very well represented in the data that especially modern men tend to have fewer friends than women, tend to feel a lot more isolated than women, and are statistically more likely to commit suicide. So, as a man, I feel somewhat compelled to help promote discussions of emotion as part of male relationships with each other. It is so important that we are able to open up, tell others that you care about them, and be able to communicate about hard things.

For a long time, especially for men, but for everyone historically and in harder times, the message was along the lines of, ‘don't be a coward, just keep your head up, any mental health struggles are not real.’ But they really, really are, and it's important to treat them as such, and work hard to make them better. But, you know, one step at a time.

So, how often do you volunteer for the hotline? What does that look like on a weekly, monthly basis?
In my first year, I went 4 times a month. It was usually a 6- or 7-hour shift and then one overnight shift, from 11:00 PM to 8:00 AM, and usually I’d get around 3 hours of sleep on an overnight. Now I'm doing managerial work, that requires 6 shifts a month, which are a little bit easier because I can do them alongside doing other things: you remain on call, effectively to check people in and out of their shifts, and be a support system when there are serious callers and the volunteer needs a walk-through on how to handle it. I then also take 2 shifts on the hotline per month.

I have to schedule the hotline around my work week. On a weekday, for instance, I might do a 7:00 PM to 11:00 PM shift, and then occasionally, I will do an 11:00 PM to 8:00 AM shift and then come into work at 8:30. But that involves a lot of naps the day before to do well.

It's very profound and meaningful work that you are doing; from our employer’s perspective, how does Kubrick support you to do this work?
As an institution, Samaritans is difficult to get into: people must be screened for availability, for temperament, people who can handle these kinds of situations, who have the consistency to stay through for a while, and the training is quite intensive and involves a bit of investment on Samaritans’ part. That means that we volunteers need to have an employer who will make this availability possible for us.

I want to thank our Senior Vice President, Jay Lockwood, for allowing me to do this, and for being flexible around some of my scheduling at times. He served as a point of reference for me when I first applied, and I don't know if I would have gotten in without that. He’s been great with letting me be on call, or occasionally jump out because I'm getting an emergency call on shift.

I would say that Kubrick itself does a good job of providing mental health support for myself and any of my colleagues; it may sound cliche, but really, I think the most direct and fundamental way we could have an impact is to try to integrate values that we really believe in into our work culture and office culture itself.

Some of our readers might be new to the topic of caring for their mental health; maybe they didn't grow up in a household that openly talked about mental illness, or have not been exposed to such challenges. While there's no one-size-fits-all approach to mental well-being, what might you say to them to start their journey?
Mental health is a huge spectrum and advice will depend on severity, but some good axioms that you could start with would be that your mental health is real, and it matters, and you're not weak or a coward for having struggles in that arena.

Whether you can do it for yourself, whether you need professional services, volunteer services like Samaritans, a friend who can really listen to you, whatever the case may be, really good listening is actually curative in and of itself. Now, it doesn't solve necessarily the problems that cause the pain you're going through, but, well-done active listening actually is a healing process on its own. So, being able to talk about it with that trusted source, with the therapist, with a hotline volunteer, you know, whatever is needed or whatever is available to you, is really a great place to start. And I think people are often really surprised by how much of a difference it can make. I would say at least from my experience, it takes a lot of bravery, which sometimes gets unacknowledged. Bravery to talk about these things. Bravery to believe you can make a difference. Bravery to acknowledge that maybe there's a problem in the first place. That's easier said than done, but being brave enough to speak up is the first step.

That's hugely important. Is there anything that you discussed today that you wanted to share more about or expand upon?
Well, for anyone who wants to get involved, I would really recommend Samaritans as an organization, especially if you're interested in doing something with a long-term commitment. They won't take you on unless you are willing to commit to at least about seven or eight months. So, if you're willing, I’ve found it to be incredibly rewarding.

I've learned a lot from it. I think it's made me better at my job, I think it's made me a better friend. I would be happy to talk about it, so if you are interested, please reach out to me! Funnily enough, Samaritans was founded in the UK, much like Kubrick, and has spread around the world, so it is an opportunity for my Kubrick colleagues on both sides of the pond.

Many thanks to Daniel Frehner. To learn more about Samaritans and how you can get involved, visit: www.samaritans.org

Via Samaritans: “If you are feeling suicidal, lonely, or depressed, we are here for you. Whatever the reason, you will get help from a trained volunteer offering nonjudgmental support. The 24/7 Helpline is confidential and free. You can call or text us any time at 988.”

This interview has been edited for consistency and clarity.